Joe Rogan talks to Johann Hari whom argues that depression and anxiety are not caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. From The Joe Rogan Experience Podcast, JRE #1077. Full podcast - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQUgd9GQtoQ
Joe Rogan - Depression IS NOT Caused By A Chemical Imbalance In The Brain?:
I have a great support system a great career i am financially good . I have a personal training work out 4 x week in the gym and hike on the weekends. I suffer from depression but I remember feeling this sadness since I was a kid. Exercise is my medicine and when I am feeling really low I hit the gym and I feel better when I leave. I believe exercise does help but I feel it’s something deep inside me deeply rooted . I think your childhood has a lot to do with your adult life , childhood trauma fucks you up forever !!!
Joe, you're being a brick-headed dick. WTF Joe... stop it. Make your point, state your questions, but let your guest get ON with what he's saying for the rest of us who can follow along with varying concepts.
Joe......... Sometimes if you really listen to yourself... You answer your own questions. This man is correct about what to do to make yourself happy. Maybe your haven't found happiness just contentment. Success is define by society right...? Therefore people are fighting to achieve something thats not natural for them thus causing most cases of extreme unhappiness once they "fail" at life.... Smh. Bruh just listen sometimes so you can learn. We all have 2 ears but 1 mouth ✌
Nobody talks about sex hormones testosterone and estrogen are key hormones with regard to mental health first thing that should be run by doctors is a hormone panel. Anti depressants should be the absolute last resort, if you have low test levels anti depressants will make it worse as they low test further.
I was on Sertraline for 3 days. Worst 3 days of my life. Then Citalopram for 4 weeks, absolutely horrendous. I've binned them now.
Let's be clear, anti-depressants are a short term solution, they make you feel a little more positive, during this time you need to change your life for the better and tackle the causes of your depression and meet all your normal human instinctual needs. Modern society damages us and pills will not fix that.
Being from a Russian background I can elaborate more on what this guy is saying atleast about Russian culture.(guessing similar like Japan and China) in our culture it is stressed to live in harmony with people and don't take kindness for granted or use kind people. Most times you be openly rebuked and rejected by others if they see you using someone's kindness. So we have many strong willed people that are still openly kind they are not weak people and if you use them they will let you have it and so will others around them. This has worked for me because I live here in the United States but socializes and interact mostly in the Russian community (I was born in USA) what helped me anytime I was down was feeling connected with people because I was living in consideration of them and they for me. It felt like I'm not going at things on my own and I return the favor by doing it for others. It also helped me solve many problems in my life that I didn't have the means to or didn't have the answer. I feel a extreme strong bond with people an intense emotional bond and the byproduct is happiness from it(other byproducts too) I think the key to happiness is not chasing happiness but living by a set of morals and principles with other people who applaud this and live like this too. I see that the problem for many Americans is that for the most part American culture now days looks at kindness as a trait of a weak minded weak willed person. They don't appreciate the actions of kindness because they think of it as the by product of a fragile non important person. So even if some had the mindset to live for others here it can't hold up long because everyone around them will devour them and could use them while others watch and say nothing. The people watching will think to themselves well that sucks that person shouldn't be so weak. Where is the humanity where is the love for people? Now tell me how are you going to find happiness in this kind of environment? Please note I am speaking on what I experienced and see as what pertains to the majority I understand there are exceptions. I personally decided to cling stronger to my Russian community because I was sick and tired of most people acting like animals. Saying stuff like your either a wolf or a sheep. No we are humans interacting with humans. Wolves don't look at other wolves and say you are a sheep and sheeps don't look at others sheep saying you are a wolf. What I am saying is we are one species.
I have depression....most people saying this don't live with it. It is chemical but it's triggered by stress and anxiety. It's like wrestling a bear ever day.most days I can just keep him from pinning me but when I'm in it that bear just pins me down. Also the you should exercise when your depressed or visit with friends or get out of the house blah blah....oh, so just do all the things depression keeps me from doing. These people just don't get it. To tell me how to deal with it when you don't live with it. It sucks. Meds don't really help but I do what I can when I can.
It never was sold that it was a chemical imbalance, but for whatever reason antidepressants can help with the symptoms and that’s very important when someone is on the brink of suicide or giving up. It’s not a cure but it’s a good tool in the tool box.
My understanding of what he's trying to explain here. I have seen that in a lot of places in Europe and Asia people still trade goods and services as neighbors and friends instead of salesman and representatives. Its part of the culture and who they are. You trade half the fish you caught today to your friend that grows stuff, your friend that makes stuff and your neighbor that does stuff. We are dehumanizing ourselves by becoming more inwards towards self and not others.
You guys like to know who is responsible for all of this???Have a clue???Fucking media brain wash and masonic coorporations who enslaved peoples,make them work for fucking peanuts,fuck this globalist,I can ensure U that hell and heaven exsist,wake up and start believe in Jesus...First step to be happy delete this Zuckenberg facebook and go talk to Your real friends...
When one makes an effort to help others, you end up making friends, build relationships, and you end up building a tribe. You end up getting to know some really wonderful people. You find out that it is truly better to give than to receive. You find people with like interests. Then before you know it, you’ve surrounded yourself with people who care about you, people who will listen and be there for you in times of need. You will attract good people when you become a good person by helping others. No one wants to hang around a selfish person, but many people want to hang around good and generous people. You also attract better quality romantic relationships which can lead to strong families. ♥️
No on can make any one happy. Joy is the key finding joy in misery ECT. A joyful heart. We all have a void in us that only God can fill. The documentary ,HAPPY, which is on Netflix. Is awesome. Humans are sheep. TV, video games, movies, magazines are all a huge influence to depression . they all gotta go
OK… I'm into this 6:12… I love the JRE and his guest is talking sense, but this tagging on the word "right?" at the end of each thought, it's maddening! It's a verbal "tick".
I looked down at several others' comment to see who else is/was being troubled by this… can I be the only one?
I excercise a shit ton and eat pretty healthy and my life is perfect other than being single and not getting enough sleep yet I’m still depressed a lot. So idk I feel like it has to be genetic or some chemical imbalance in the brain.
Based on my experiences of having chronic depression, for most of my life, I found that an anti-inflammatory medication for arthritis helped me a great deal. I then noticed how our society represses us to cause us to be unhappy.
As a former Jehovah's Witness, we went door to door and notice that talking to the public lifted our spirits. Disaster relief after a hurricane Ike to rebuild peoples houses, bleaching walls from mildew REALLY DID give you feeling of self worth. I think we do take giving for granted for what the true value we should receive and it's not a gift in return...
Depression is natural. Prolonged depression is not healthy . But in. Reality some people don't have happy lives. I try to ,stay on the Sunnyside. But sometimes things get me down. Time heals these wounds
This Hari dude is cancer. Seriously. First of all, nobody uses this Hamilton scale in practice. Secondly, his poor experience with anti-depressants is easily attributed to receiving an incorrect prescription. SSRIs are only one category, and if he stopped there then no wonder he lost faith. I've seen him talk about this before. He rails against pharma for making money, and yet HE earns his living by giving these sorts of talks. He's the anti-vaxxer of mental health. And people will die because of the bullshit he's peddling.
The problem is that we put so much emphasis on being happy. Happiness is temporary and mostly circumstantial. Jesus said we will have trouble in this life. Forget being happy. The key is Joy. That comes from God. God will help you find joy even in the midst of the worst circumstances. God gives us the strength to endure our trials.
I MUST AGREE!!! Financial anxiety is a major cause of unhappiness, thus depression. Worrying about your kids future, worry about taking care of your family, worrying about job security, worrying about finding a job that pays more than minimum wage, let alone a job you like a little. Worrying about student loan debt, then finding a low paying job b/c of too much competition - more Indians than chiefs. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IS NOT OUT FOR OUR BEST INTEREST!!! WOW, HOW DEPRESSING! EVERYONE DESERVES AN AFFORDABLE, NICE, CLEAN, PEACEFUL, PLACE TO SLEEP/REST. EVERYONE DESERVES NUTRIENT DENSE FOOD AND CLEAN, HEALTHY WATER. EVERYONE DESERVES AN HONEST USEFUL EDUCATION. WHAT A HELL-HOLE WE LIVE!!! NO WONDER "U.S. Antidepressant Use Jumps 65 Percent in 15 Years." It's because we live like rats in the way overpriced dirty cities and much more so in the burbs!
I'm 45 years old, struggle to find a decent stable job, and have been applying at many companies. it's been 8 months since my last job.
I have no criminal record
Do not use drugs
Have reliable transportation
No odd piercings
Very dependable and punctual.
And still 5 staffing agencies, in which I'm registered with, can not place me in a stable assignment. This is what is making me feel depressed.
It's understood when you're an irresponsible idiot with a criminal record who uses drugs and have a difficult time getting hired.
But when you're none of the above and STILL can't get hired????? That's what's very depressing.
+Craig Davenport What is your opinion on this?? Could it be maybe that we are really over populated or is it that too many jobs have been eliminated??
I'm worried that if it's like this now, what's to say how it's going to be 5 to 10 years from now. I will be a 55 year old man by then.
I feel for you. I am in a similar position. Finding a job which gives you a sense of self worth is a massive boost for your ego. What nobody will say is that there aren't enough jobs to go round. Good luck.
If a person is exercising and is eating healthy and they seemingly have a pretty good life, not much struggles and are still depressed then I would highly recommend looking into vitamin defeciencies. The reason I say this is because even if you're eating healthy, and at a healthy weight your body could have a hard time absorbing the essential vitamins due to genetic mutations you were born with and dont even know it! Food for thought!
Ummmm.. whenever I get the pleasure to help another person and not out of obligation it brings me joy. The experience and the energy alonr fills my cup. I happen to get in funks a lot. Become stagnet in my walk and the manic will start to take over and I hide from Every one and everything. That's when I need a friend the most to take my mind of things, joke , (not talk about the problem) go for a walk, etc.. in the moments I don't want to be around anyone , I should be. Though having solitude is very healthy.. there is a time a place for all. I like this conversation and in my experience from postpartum depression and anxiety. The medications was just a bandaid and didn't heal me, it just put the pain away temporarily. I haven't had any meds in years, but I still have my moments. But stepping outside myself, spending time with healthy friends, and doing things I actually enjoy (i.e. listening to music on a walk while taking random pictures of nature, breathing and being in the moment) it's like a reboost. Sorry, all over the place.. but helping others does take your mind off your own pain and you are doing some good :)
10/11 years on antidepressants (from 18 to 29. whole youth).. still depression never went away. He perfectly said it... "it just takes the edge off when u r a big mess". But other then that... they are useless. And doctor tellin me "i have a chemical imbalance" (for 10 years now? wth..) doesnt help either. I constantly argue with her that there's deeper reasons and not everythin is about the darn pills. There's real problems that have to be solved if i want to overcome it but u just always get a dishonest statement "chem. imbalance".....Sometimes i think the patient knows better then the "professionals". At this point i've tried probably most of drugs in periods of 2 years or so... And yea.. my depression never really left me. It's just a pharmacy bussiness + dishonest doctors i guess. Giving desperate people a false hope. But at the core i think it's all obvious why we have such cases.
I think the main cause is like he said... we might have everything by modern day standards.. but the actual standards and system is a huge fail.. so by following such standards we'll never be happy. i realised it quite long ago but the worst thing about this is.. that there's basically no escape. play by the rules live by the rules have a house a mansion a car a family - u'll still be depressed. well now don't play by the rules don't get a job dont follow a career and u'll be depressed too (cuz u'll just be a homeless person without a job or a fake "purpose"). basically no way out. unless just goin on a hill and meditating for your whole life.. that isnt very appealing either. it's a simple circle of create a disease -> go buy a drug. create more disease -> get another drug. well what about erasing the core reason for a disease instead of feeding people pills and numbing them down? need to start from there.. our global culture has to change then maybe we'll see more and more happiness around. less emphasis on money and careers and materialistic things and more emphasis on relationships honesty community. mostly ppl with higher moral standards or in general more intelligent people are tend to be depressed cuz deep down they realise we're livin in this fake flawed world. I think in buddhism/krishna'ism there's a saying that goes along the lines.. "If you want to be happy you have to completely give up money and materialistic worldview". That sounds quite about right.
I work daily as a psych nurse with people and these issues, I often find that a combination of medication, support and life changes can have a good change in circumstances. However, medication alone sometimes isn’t enough. The other factors are crucial too.
I am 48 years old. I never had depression until I was in an abusive relationship in my late 20s early 30s I have so called depression but I really feel like it's ptsd. I took antidepressants back then for 3 years and it made it worse. I was like a zombie with no emotions. Id rather be sad or hurt than have no emotions. Anyway I quit taking those and I still have bad memories but I am getting along fine now! Those drugs have a lasting effect and it's not good. I struggle but I'm good. Exercise before drugs !
I've been depressed and suicidal before, I know it's not a chemical imbalance. In order for my to get out of that depression and the suicidal thoughts and tendencies I had to radically change my life. I've even taken pills before and pills never work.
If I myself do not like having to self medicate, then why would I prescribe meds to manage symptoms of depression, etc when there are least invasive yet more worthwhile methods to try? ... if a patient is cooperative. Having people dependent on meds means "control." And not the good kind..
You guys miss understand Joe. He’s saying by thinking “Oh. I’m going to get happy by helping someone else” is not the right motivation. He’s right. It’s like buying your way to heaven. Also Joe misunderstood the guy. In other cultures people would never think of it like that. It would cross their mind that they’re making themselves happy by helping others. They just help.
The chemical imbalance is caused by the depression, the depression isn't caused by the chemical imbalance. The depression is caused by a complex set of life situations. Antidepressants do nothing to adress the problem. In fact I think they can make people much worse. If only by virtue of giving a patient false hope.
Eighty percent of serotonin is produced in the gut. See Dr. Perlmutters work. Take a probiotic, get your ferritin level above 75, get off refined carbohydrates and correct your Vitamin B deficiencies (which are alive and well in the west) grains cause them. Focus especially on B1 and B12 you need high high doses. Give your brain fat for fuel, get off sugar, your brain needs fat!!!
I'm almost 30 and I've never taken antidepressants. I find it's a normal function of the brain to be depressed at time (work sucks, money, truck broke down, being broke, gf left you, you lost your job, etc....) What I found is that negative feeling has motivated me to work harder, save money, make better choices, and ultimately made me a better person today, because I allowed myself to process everything that got me to that position in my life. I think today everyone has a warped perception of happiness. I also believe that we've been trained that having negative feelings is inherently bad and if I just take this pill it will all go away. You've just treated the symptoms, not fixed the problem. You want to fix problem you need to fix the individual. You need to change the mindset. Unhappy people are unhappy because they choose to neglect to work on things in their life that make then unhappy.
we live in the age of balance theories and they are all mostly wrong and misleading. Being fat isn't about caloric imbalances, it's about hormones. Being depressed isn't about chemical imbalances, it's about fullfilling your needs as a human being. Being poor isn't about economic imbalances, it's personal choices and lack of growth policies. Being tired and stressed isn't about "energy balance", you need to exert yourself regularly to feel relaxed and energetic.
Great discussion and excellent references. The information Johann Hari tells about social needs as being a great anti-depressant actually touches the point of basic psychological needs as described in Self-Determination theory. Self-Determination theory - which is pretty commonly accepted for most parts, especially for the self motivation drivers - states that we have four basic psychological needs which need to be fulfilled for us to feel ourselves happy. They are autonomy, competence, relatedness and beneficence.
Autonomy represents the fact that we feel accomplishments when we can determine ourselves the way we do things. Competence gives us feeling of being capable of doing things properly. Relatedness is our need to feel socially accepted and belonging. Beneficence is our need to do something good to others, to be beneficent.
In the example of Cambodia, Johann Hari shows these points being used to relieve the farmer from his depression: cow gives this man the possibility to be autonomous (tend the cow the best he can), competent (he can be the farmer and use his former knowledge to tend his cow), relatedness (the doctor and the community listened to and responded to his unhappiness) and beneficience (he can give back to others when he gets the chance).
We are living in a culture of isolation instead of connecting, even though we have this world wide web to communicate with. Internet cannot replace real social connection and that has been show by several studies already.
WOW !!!...I thought it was common knowledge that helping other people automatically makes us feel better. I think Joe is great in many ways and well balanced, but seeing him so surprised by this fact really sheds alot of light on why we are so lost as a society in general. Instead of helping people these day's , we have been slowly conditioned to do the opposite because of too many laws , regulation, competition, scams which turns everyone against each other. Play your music too loud and your neighbor calls the cops , smoke too close to a non smoker and they want to fight you or make nasty comments, make a mistake on the roads etc etc . No tolerance with our fellow humans is rife and so destructive to us all.
It's nice that in Cambodia buying a cow constitutes an outright career change. Where I live, it's not as simple as just saying "I don't like this job, I'm going to switch to a different one I actually like"...usually when someone is working a job they hate it's because they don't have a choice, or because the alternatives are even worse. You can't choose who will give you a job offer, regardless how highly qualified you may be or how good you are at interviews.
Joe- helping others could mean you cook a meal together or you do charity work, integrating yourself back to society again and reconnecting is a good way to achieve happiness. It is not that hard to understand, surely?
I think this guy didn't explain things all that well. One thing I see all the time being repeated over and over in US and UK is the mantra "self care" and "you can't look after other people if you don't take care of yourself first". I think this is the implicit value that people in the US turned to when they were asked to make themselves happier. So that translates to going to the gym for some alone time, going and having your nails done, taking a yoga class or a creative workshop. All nice things. But in these other countries probably they didn't say "ok I should do something for over people now", rather they thought of things like: inviting people over for a bbq, play a board game with some friends, etc. BTW I think it is important to take care of yourself but it is interesting to me that the caring of other people is seen, for American women, as a draining activity rather than sometimes that is fulfilling. I believe this is because it tends to happen in an isolated way. The normal way, before modernity would be to share your life with several people around your own age, in-laws etc. The "burden" of care would be shared and several adults would share the responsibility of minding children, the elderly and there would be natural opportunities for any one person to get away and participate in some other task and/or relaxation. But being alone with small children all day you don't get that relief or social stimulation. And for the working partner, they become even more alienated from the social fabric. I kind of want to buy a house next door to my parents and maybe siblings and live almost communally. Most likely I'd be regarded as a freak by modern standards..
I totally agree with this. I think as human beings we are so caught up in this idealisation that we have to be a certain something; skinny, big house, car, kids, great job, great pay.. we follow insta stars that show life as perfection and if we don't have it we beat ourselves up over it. I really think life needs to go back to simplicity- we need to stop wanting material objects that do not fulfill our needs. We do really need to educate people more into realising that they are 'normal' if they feel down for these reasons.
The root problem is money no matter what you want to call it or boil it down to. The value of human life is equated to the # on a piece of paper. You can fuckin argue it all you want. Thats the bottom line. Till that changes. This planet will continue to worsen.
Antidepressants are medications that can help relieve symptoms of depression, social anxiety disorder, anxiety disorders, seasonal affective disorder, and dysthymia, or mild chronic depression, as well as other conditions.
They aim to correct chemical imbalances of neurotransmitters in the brain that are believed to be responsible for changes in mood and behavior.
Depression Medications (Antidepressants)
These are the most commonly prescribed type of antidepressant.
Serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) are used to treat major depression, mood disorders, and possibly but less commonly attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), anxiety disorders, menopausal symptoms, fibromyalgia, and chronic neuropathic pain.
SNRIs raise levels of serotonin and norepinephrine, two neurotransmitters in the brain that play a key role in stabilizing mood.
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are the most commonly prescribed antidepressants. They are effective in treating depression, and they have fewer side effects than the other antidepressants.
SSRIs block the reuptake, or absorption, of serotonin in the brain. This makes it easier for the brain cells to receive and send messages, resulting in better and more stable moods.
They are called "selective" because they mainly seem to affect serotonin, and not the other neurotransmitters.